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[Solved]D5100 and Serial Shutter Bulb Control

  • Posts: 8
  • Thank you received: 1
Im having an issue with making this camera work in bulb mode with Ekos and Indi-Gphoto. So from what I had read, I built a serial cable to control the shutter for the camera, and that works in windows with no issues with DSLR Shutter (Stark-labs). I can make multiple long exposures with the cable.

My issue is when i try and use it with gphoto in ekos. When i plug in the device in the Ekos VM and load up the USB device, a new port shows up as /dev/ttyUSB0. So i put that as the shutter release port. And then when I try and take any kind of exposure, a few different things have happened. Ive done the same procedure about a 100 times now and everytime the same results:
  • The driver starts taking an exposure and starts counting down but the shutter release cable never gets triggered. - Alot to most of the time
  • The driver throws an error that it failed to open serial port - The only times i can find any errors in the log.
  • The exposure light just turns yellow and becomes unresponsive and i have to disconnect the camera and restart indi to be able to do anything at all. - Alot of the time

Do you have any idea about how to make this work in Ekos? Ive got tons of experience coding C++ but im a newcomer into linux, and from what ive seem going through gphoto_driver.cpp in the code repository the shutter trigger seems pretty straightforward, just not sure what im doing wrong.
Last edit: 6 years 11 months ago by Vignesh Murugan.
6 years 11 months ago #15978

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Normally these issues are related with user permissions to the comm port, in you case /dev/ttyUSB0.
You have to check if your username is in the dialout group, ekos does this on install from ppa but something could be wrong.

Do an ls -al /dev/ttyUSB*
and see it it's like this: crw-rw---- 1 root dialout 188, 0 Dec 01 00:00 /dev/ttyUSB0
That should give permission to the dialout group where your username should be.

If it's not in the group you can use:
sudo adduser {username} dialout

log out, log in, your username should have access to /dev/ttyUSB0.

Wich hardware did you use for interfacing the shutter cable?
Oh and a Log file would be usefull too. Please send one if you can.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Jasem Mutlaq
Last edit: 6 years 11 months ago by nMAC.
6 years 11 months ago #15979

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When i run the line you said this is what i get in return and it looks to be all good, this is the pre configured VM.
indi@ekos-vm:~$ ls -al /dev/ttyUSB*
crw-rw-rw- 1 root dialout 188, 0 Apr  5 19:03 /dev/ttyUSB0

When I do a quick test this is what i get, note it thinks the capture is being taken, but the shutter never went off.
INFO	88.259047 sec	: Session log file /tmp/indi_gphoto_ccd_2017-04-05T16:03:50.log
DEBUG	106.009442 sec	: Starting exposure (exptime: 60 secs, mirror lock: 0)
DEBUG	106.009467 sec	:   Mutex locked
DEBUG	106.009963 sec	: looking for bulb exposure..
DEBUG	106.009974 sec	: bulb exposure found! id:52
DEBUG	106.009980 sec	: Using bulb mode. idx: 52
DEBUG	106.036425 sec	: Exposure started
INFO	106.036473 sec	: Starting 60 sec exposure
DEBUG	106.036540 sec	: Time left: 59974
DEBUG	107.036624 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 59
DEBUG	108.037240 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 58
DEBUG	109.037489 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 56
DEBUG	110.038674 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 55
DEBUG	111.037372 sec	: Time left: 54974
DEBUG	111.039024 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 54
DEBUG	112.039169 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 53
DEBUG	113.039407 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 52
DEBUG	114.039616 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 51
DEBUG	115.040532 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 50
DEBUG	116.037459 sec	: Time left: 49973
DEBUG	116.040599 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 49
DEBUG	117.041586 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 48
DEBUG	118.041973 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 47
DEBUG	119.042517 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 46
DEBUG	120.043198 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 45
DEBUG	121.037822 sec	: Time left: 44973
DEBUG	121.046658 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 44
DEBUG	122.046839 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 43
DEBUG	123.047039 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 42
DEBUG	124.047246 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 41
DEBUG	125.047492 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 40
DEBUG	126.038233 sec	: Time left: 39973
DEBUG	126.047866 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 39
DEBUG	127.047972 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 38
DEBUG	128.048472 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 37
DEBUG	129.049436 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 36
DEBUG	130.049731 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 35
DEBUG	131.038951 sec	: Time left: 34972
DEBUG	131.061815 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 34
DEBUG	132.062541 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 33
DEBUG	133.062716 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 32
DEBUG	134.063649 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 31
DEBUG	135.063855 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 30
DEBUG	136.039087 sec	: Time left: 29972
DEBUG	136.064883 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 29
DEBUG	137.064966 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 28
DEBUG	138.065921 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 27
DEBUG	139.066314 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 26
DEBUG	140.066424 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 25
DEBUG	141.039339 sec	: Time left: 24972
DEBUG	141.066557 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 24
DEBUG	142.066650 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 23
DEBUG	143.067086 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 22
DEBUG	144.067269 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 21
DEBUG	145.067367 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 20
DEBUG	146.039435 sec	: Time left: 19971
DEBUG	146.068119 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 19
DEBUG	147.068749 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 18
DEBUG	148.069082 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 17
DEBUG	149.069500 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 16
DEBUG	150.069816 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 15
DEBUG	151.040298 sec	: Time left: 14971
DEBUG	151.070617 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 14
DEBUG	152.070728 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 13
DEBUG	153.071221 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 12
DEBUG	154.071865 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 11
DEBUG	155.072302 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 10
DEBUG	156.040536 sec	: Time left: 9970
DEBUG	156.072861 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 9
DEBUG	157.073039 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 8
DEBUG	158.073533 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 7
DEBUG	159.073721 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 6
DEBUG	160.073819 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 5
DEBUG	161.040723 sec	: Time left: 4970
DEBUG	161.074533 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 4
DEBUG	162.074697 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 3
DEBUG	163.075911 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 2
DEBUG	164.076027 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 1
DEBUG	165.076274 sec	: Reading exposure
DEBUG	166.011030 sec	: Time left: 0
DEBUG	166.011083 sec	: Closing shutter
DEBUG	166.034514 sec	: Exposure complete
DEBUG	166.706890 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	167.380639 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	168.051348 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	168.719837 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	169.392856 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	170.061772 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	170.732980 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	171.407513 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	172.076294 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	172.742655 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	173.410153 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	174.077954 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	174.747901 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	175.422338 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	176.091737 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	176.763178 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	177.435521 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	178.109289 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	178.776288 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	179.440423 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	180.111328 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	180.781275 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	181.452019 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	182.119860 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	182.786674 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	183.457614 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	184.130769 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	184.803085 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	185.471962 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	186.140994 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	186.815252 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	187.483591 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	188.153465 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	188.826256 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	189.497154 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	190.168272 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	190.839675 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	191.514931 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	192.191017 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	192.855407 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	193.528816 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	194.196917 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	194.871927 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	195.542655 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	196.217155 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	196.888190 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	197.555986 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	198.229960 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	198.898562 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	199.570129 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	200.241983 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	200.915109 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	201.584646 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	202.252128 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	202.924925 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	203.594816 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	204.264908 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	204.935060 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	205.601333 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	206.273497 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	206.942964 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	207.613443 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	208.285592 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	208.954773 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	209.624549 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	210.293393 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	210.960416 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	211.633241 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	212.300787 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	212.968319 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	213.643397 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	214.312389 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	214.983806 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	215.657248 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	216.327074 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	216.999564 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	217.667864 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	218.338367 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	219.008008 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	219.673973 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	220.349035 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	221.017029 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	221.687586 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	222.356925 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	223.028942 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	223.702957 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	224.373218 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	225.043269 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	225.711265 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	226.378435 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	227.048839 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	227.715883 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	228.386114 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1
DEBUG	229.058494 sec	: Got unexpected message: 1

And hardware wise its a simple FTDI Cable with the RTS line connected to a PNP transistor which in turn grounds the shutter and focus pins together (Nikon needs both grounded to take an exposure). I dont know if its worth noting but it works just fine on windows but i tried DSLR shutter on a mac and its not tripping the shutter at all.
Last edit: 6 years 11 months ago by Vignesh Murugan.
6 years 11 months ago #15980

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The permissions look ok.
if it works on windows it maybe be a connection misconfiguration.

Made a simple search and it seems there are others reports on the forum:

indilib.org/forum/general/354-nikon-bulb-cable-solved.html
www.indilib.org/forum/ccds-dslrs/220-nikon-d7000.html#415
The following user(s) said Thank You: Jasem Mutlaq
6 years 11 months ago #15981

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Did you update the drivers in Ekos VM? Looks like you're using old INDI drivers. Do
sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get -y dist-upgrade

I'll be releasing a new VM once 17.04 is officially out.
6 years 11 months ago #15990

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Hey Jasem

Seems like i actually was running the older version of Indi. Now the drivers dont crash or anything but it doesnt trigger at all anymore. Heres a log of the updated drivers and trying to take 2 exposures.
INFO	1.717737 sec	: Session log file /home/indi/.indi/logs/2017-04-06/indi_gphoto_ccd/indi_gphoto_ccd_08:55:47.log
DEBUG	1.717863 sec	: Requested CCD Frame is (  0,  0) (1280 x 1024)
DEBUG	1.717980 sec	: Configuration successfully loaded.
DEBUG	49.394974 sec	: Configuration successfully saved.
DEBUG	128.150412 sec	: Requested CCD Frame is (  0,  0) (1280 x 1024)
DEBUG	128.150659 sec	: Starting exposure (exptime: 10 secs, mirror lock: 0)
DEBUG	128.150668 sec	:   Mutex locked
DEBUG	128.150678 sec	: Setting radio/menu widget iso: 12 (1600)
DEBUG	128.151090 sec	: Setting new configuration OK.
DEBUG	128.151097 sec	: Setting radio/menu widget capturetarget: 1 (Memory card)
DEBUG	128.151502 sec	: Setting new configuration OK.
DEBUG	128.151511 sec	: Opening remote serial shutter port: /dev/ttyUSB0 ...
DEBUG	128.186711 sec	: Exposure started
INFO	128.186763 sec	: Starting 10 sec exposure
DEBUG	128.186851 sec	: Time left: 10000
DEBUG	129.188004 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 8
DEBUG	130.188518 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 7
DEBUG	131.188943 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 6
DEBUG	132.189482 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 5
DEBUG	133.187289 sec	: Time left: 5000
DEBUG	133.190141 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 4
DEBUG	134.190774 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 3
DEBUG	135.191230 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 2
DEBUG	136.191552 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 1
DEBUG	137.191726 sec	: Reading exposure...
DEBUG	138.187600 sec	: Time left: 0
DEBUG	138.187875 sec	: Closing shutter
DEBUG	138.201891 sec	: Exposure complete
DEBUG	138.238931 sec	: Unknown event.
DEBUG	138.248839 sec	: Unknown event.
DEBUG	139.306103 sec	: File added event completed.
DEBUG	139.309869 sec	: gp_file_new_from_fd result: 0
DEBUG	139.310466 sec	: Downloading //capt0000.nef
DEBUG	139.326264 sec	: Downloading result: 0
DEBUG	139.330065 sec	:  Downloaded 0x0 (preview 0x0)
DEBUG	139.330695 sec	: Deleting.
DEBUG	139.333426 sec	:   Retval: 0
DEBUG	139.333519 sec	: Setting radio/menu widget iso: 12 (1600)
DEBUG	139.334654 sec	: Setting new configuration OK.
DEBUG	139.334971 sec	: Setting radio/menu widget shutterspeed2: 52 (Bulb)
DEBUG	139.337848 sec	: Setting new configuration OK.
INFO	139.338006 sec	: Exposure done, downloading image...
DEBUG	139.933404 sec	: read_libraw: raw_width: 4992 top_margin 0 left_margin 0 first_visible_pixel 0
DEBUG	139.938071 sec	: read_libraw: rawdata.sizes.width: 4948 rawdata.sizes.height 3280 memsize 32458880 bayer_pattern RGGB
DEBUG	139.965855 sec	: read_libraw: memsize (32458880) naxis (2) w (4948) h (3280) bpp (16) pattern (RGGB)
DEBUG	140.048863 sec	: Uploading file. Ext: fits, Size: 32463360, sendImage? Yes, saveImage? No
DEBUG	140.337609 sec	: Upload complete
DEBUG	267.857280 sec	: Requested CCD Frame is (  0,  0) (1280 x 1024)
DEBUG	267.857502 sec	: Starting exposure (exptime: 10 secs, mirror lock: 0)
DEBUG	267.857513 sec	:   Mutex locked
DEBUG	267.857523 sec	: Setting radio/menu widget iso: 12 (1600)
DEBUG	267.858004 sec	: Setting new configuration OK.
DEBUG	267.858012 sec	: Setting radio/menu widget capturetarget: 1 (Memory card)
DEBUG	267.858642 sec	: Setting new configuration OK.
DEBUG	267.858658 sec	: Opening remote serial shutter port: /dev/ttyUSB0 ...
DEBUG	267.888008 sec	: Exposure started
INFO	267.888071 sec	: Starting 10 sec exposure
DEBUG	267.888109 sec	: Time left: 10000
DEBUG	268.888485 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 8
DEBUG	269.889110 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 7
DEBUG	270.889697 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 6
DEBUG	271.890181 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 5
DEBUG	272.888282 sec	: Time left: 5000
DEBUG	272.891587 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 4
DEBUG	273.892451 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 3
DEBUG	274.893035 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 2
DEBUG	275.893437 sec	: Capture in progress. Time left 1
DEBUG	276.894489 sec	: Reading exposure...
DEBUG	277.888473 sec	: Time left: 0
DEBUG	277.888529 sec	: Closing shutter
DEBUG	277.903207 sec	: Exposure complete
DEBUG	279.172557 sec	: File added event completed.
DEBUG	279.172633 sec	: gp_file_new_from_fd result: 0
DEBUG	279.172656 sec	: Downloading //capt0001.nef
DEBUG	279.204945 sec	: Downloading result: 0
DEBUG	279.205633 sec	:  Downloaded 0x0 (preview 0x0)
DEBUG	279.205692 sec	: Deleting.
DEBUG	279.205736 sec	:   Retval: 0
DEBUG	279.205785 sec	: Setting radio/menu widget iso: 12 (1600)
DEBUG	279.206321 sec	: Setting new configuration OK.
DEBUG	279.207508 sec	: Setting radio/menu widget shutterspeed2: 52 (Bulb)
DEBUG	279.208062 sec	: Setting new configuration OK.
INFO	279.208141 sec	: Exposure done, downloading image...
DEBUG	280.041903 sec	: read_libraw: raw_width: 4992 top_margin 0 left_margin 0 first_visible_pixel 0
DEBUG	280.048865 sec	: read_libraw: rawdata.sizes.width: 4948 rawdata.sizes.height 3280 memsize 32458880 bayer_pattern RGGB
DEBUG	280.071662 sec	: read_libraw: memsize (32458880) naxis (2) w (4948) h (3280) bpp (16) pattern (RGGB)
DEBUG	280.085379 sec	: Subframing...
DEBUG	280.098898 sec	: Uploading file. Ext: fits, Size: 2626560, sendImage? Yes, saveImage? No
DEBUG	280.164340 sec	: Upload complete

The shutter never went off in both case but the pictures downloaded were pictures that were taken before starting the indi server, basically the last picture taken.
6 years 11 months ago #15993

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You can see it is setting capturetarget to memory card. This is actually hard-coded in the driver as capturetarget: 0 (RAM) never worked for Nikon before. Can you capture an image using GPhoto2 form the console? You can also editing the driver to capture from RAM and see if that works for you, but it never worked for Nikon users before.
6 years 11 months ago #15994

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Ive done a bit more testing and ive noticed something really peculiar. Gphoto2 is able to control my camera without any issues for anything below bulb exposures.

The interesting bit is I checked my shutter cable with DSLR Shutter on Windows, it works fine. Then checked on the same computer, on Ekos Vm whether it will trigger the camera but nothing.

Then I plugged the shutter cable into my Macbook and tried DSLR Shutter there, camera does NOT get triggered on my Mac. Then I loaded up an XP Virtual Machine, and then tested DSLR Shutter in there and it works.

I think theres something stopping software from triggering the cable from MacOs as well as Linux. Have i missed something in configuring the system?
6 years 11 months ago #15999

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I don't know how the shutter cable exactly operates. From the code I see it simply opens the device for read/writing and that's it. Is this what's happening on Windows too?
6 years 11 months ago #16002

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Ive done a bit of testing, and I've found something super interesting.

The reason the shutter cable isn't working, its because of any issue within Ekos or Kstars or Indi. Its something to do with Linux and MacOS or an issue with the FTDI cable I'm running.
I used a simple script on python that basically opens a serial connection to the port toggles the RTS Line and see whether the camera actually does something.
import serial
ser = serial.Serial()
ser.port = 'COM3'
ser.open()
ser.setRTS(True)
ser.setRTS(False)
On Windows, this code starts exposing and opens the shutter as long as the RTS line is held high. And when RTS is low, the shutter closes.
On Mac and Linux this code doesnt physically set the RTS line high at all.

I have a feeling theres an issue at a FTDI Driver level for my issue. Ill dig around a bit more.
6 years 11 months ago #16013

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After some searching it seems FTDI chips have a lot of issues with linux kernel and RTS Line.
There are a lot of complaints about this. FTDI has specific drivers for linux on their support page, maybe installing them will solve it.
I remember having an hard time when I tried to connect my HEQ5 with an FTDI cable (5v one). I had to switch to another solution.

forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=50829.0
stackoverflow.com/questions/17385272/how...pins-values-on-linux
www.ftdichip.com/Support/FAQs.htm
hackaday.com/2009/09/22/introduction-to-ftdi-bitbang-mode
Last edit: 6 years 11 months ago by nMAC.
6 years 11 months ago #16014

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UPDATE:

I managed to get Python in Ubuntu working and starting the shutter, I'm not sure what i did tbh, but I reflashed the EEPROM on the FTDI chip and something seems to have done something and opening the port and then running the ser.setRTS(1) and ser.setRTS(0) works!

No clue why it started working all of a sudden but I'm not complaining. Quick test with the indidriver doesnt seem to show any difference in starting the shutter, so ill try and edit the indi_gphoto driver to include RTS high and low.

Im just not sure how and where to begin compiling stuff for this OS, being super new to it and all...
6 years 11 months ago #16015

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